How Many Is Too Many? Phil Cafaro Makes the Progressive Case for Reducing Immigration
“Protecting the environment means stabilizing our population. And that means we have to make some tough choices.”
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In an era of overheated political rhetoric and polarized debates, the issue of immigration remains one of the most complex and emotionally charged topics in America. John Howell welcomes philosopher and environmental ethicist Phil Cafaro to the podcast to tackle a deceptively simple question: How many immigrants should the United States allow in each year?
Cafaro, a self-described FDR liberal and board member of Numbers USA, approaches immigration through a lens not often heard in today’s discourse—one that combines progressive values with concerns for economic justice, working-class wages, and environmental sustainability. He argues that the United States needs to return to pre-1965 immigration levels, stabilize population growth, and enforce existing laws—not to punish migrants, but to protect American workers and preserve natural resources.
Throughout the conversation, Cafaro challenges both political parties: Democrats, he says, have drifted too far toward open borders, while Republicans are often torn between anti-immigrant rhetoric and a business class that depends on cheap labor. He also defends the controversial E-Verify program and makes the case for targeted amnesty paired with serious border enforcement.
And while some critics—including organizations like the Southern Poverty Law Center—have raised red flags about the groups Cafaro is affiliated with, he’s quick to push back. “You can’t have a system where everyone’s a winner,” he says. “There are costs to whatever we do. My goal is to find a policy that protects the environment, supports fair wages, and respects the rule of law.”
Whether you agree or disagree, Cafaro offers a thoughtful and nuanced perspective on an issue that too often gets reduced to slogans and shouting.